Are these Baptisms valid?? working4hrist2 working4christ2

ul 11, '12, 7:09 am

applesofgold New Member   Join Date: July 2, 2012 Posts: 27 Religion: Catholic

Are these Baptisms valid?? Friends have recently told be of novel ways that the priest involved family and friends at recent baptisms they attended in a catholic church. Various combinations of the following occurred. A: The Godmother (or other lay person) poured the water on the child’s head while the priest said the words “I baptize you …….” B: Other lay people ( sometimes more than one) pour the water while everyone says the words “I baptize you…….” Together. C: Lay people invited to come forward and “bless” the child by making the sign of the cross on him/her with either the Oil of Catechumens or the Chrism. It seems like the pastor is going to extreme lengths to make everybody feel included, but does it go so far as to bring the validity of the sacrament into question? I have submitted this question for an apologist, but perhaps others may have a view.

#2   Jul 11, '12, 7:22 am

dans0622 Regular Member   Join Date: November 11, 2008 Posts: 1,029 Religion: Catholic

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? Hello, The first two scenarios are certainly invalid. The one who says the words has to pour the water in order for the words to make sense ("I baptize you...). The last scenario is silly but not relevant to validity since the pouring of water and the Trinitarian formula is the Sacrament, not the anointings. You really should immediately bring this to the attention of the authorities in your diocese or whatever the diocese is in which this is said to be occuring. It is very serious! Dan

#3   Jul 11, '12, 7:26 am

1ke Forum Elder   Join Date: May 25, 2004 Posts: 21,480 Religion: Catholic

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? Quote: Originally Posted by dans0622 Hello, The first two scenarios are certainly invalid. The one who says the words has to pour the water in order for the words to make sense ("I baptize you...). The last scenario is silly but not relevant to validity since the pouring of water and the Trinitarian formula is the Sacrament, not the anointings. You really should immediately bring this to the attention of the authorities in your diocese or whatever the diocese is in which this is said to be occuring. It is very serious! Dan Ditto. This is quite serious __________________ Pax, ke ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.

#4   Jul 11, '12, 7:33 am

Bookcat Forum Master   Join Date: January 14, 2009 Posts: 15,828 Religion: Christian! Catholic! Disciple of Jesus of Nazareth!

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? Yes very serious -- they would contact the Diocese where it took place. In the case of invalid baptism --a baptism needs to occur. __________________ VIVAS IN DEO IHCOY XPICTOY

#5   Jul 11, '12, 7:42 am

Bookcat Forum Master   Join Date: January 14, 2009 Posts: 15,828 Religion: Christian! Catholic! Disciple of Jesus of Nazareth!

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? The same person who pours the water needs to say the "I baptize you in the name of the Father...." __________________ VIVAS IN DEO IHCOY XPICTOY

#6   Jul 11, '12, 8:17 am

Phemie Forum Master   Join Date: November 27, 2007 Posts: 12,038 Religion: Catholic

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? One just has to ask, "What the heck are they teaching in the seminary these days?!?!?!" Just to tell you how serious this is, about a decade ago the Diocese of Saint-Jerome in Québec declared invalid close to 300 Baptisms conferred in the parish of Pointe-Calumet, because the lay person mandated by the bishop to confer Baptism had been having the dads pour the water while she spoke the words. It went on for years until a knowledgeable grandmother in attendance spotted the error and called the Bishop. It speaks volumes about the state of religion in what used to be the most Catholic place in Canada that nobody before then knew enough about the sacrament of Baptism to notice that things weren't being done correctly.

#7   Jul 11, '12, 9:18 am

anp1215 Regular Member   Join Date: March 31, 2010 Posts: 3,753 Religion: Roman Catholic

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? How awful. The ramifications are enormous! If these kids are going on to have their other Sacraments, this renders them all invalid (I'm pretty sure). Of course, through no fault of their own, but invalid nonetheless! __________________ Viva il Papa! Long live Pope Francis!

#8   Jul 11, '12, 9:33 am

johnnykins Regular Member   Join Date: November 2, 2005 Posts: 1,905 Religion: catholic

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? Quote: Originally Posted by dans0622 Hello, The first two scenarios are certainly invalid. The one who says the words has to pour the water in order for the words to make sense ("I baptize you...). The last scenario is silly but not relevant to validity since the pouring of water and the Trinitarian formula is the Sacrament, not the anointings. You really should immediately bring this to the attention of the authorities in your diocese or whatever the diocese is in which this is said to be occuring. It is very serious! Dan I think the second scenario is probably valid as long as the person pouring says the formula of Baptism. If, however, the lay person pouring is not saying the words, then I would agree. In any event, this needs to go to the Bishop pronto.... __________________ St. Josephat pray for us Bl. Cardinal Stepinac pray for us

#9   Jul 11, '12, 9:33 am

txstm New Member   Join Date: June 4, 2007 Posts: 62 Religion: Catholic

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? So what happens to someone who dies thinking their (or their child's) babtism was valid? Are they damned through no fault of their own?

#10   Jul 11, '12, 10:02 am

1ke Forum Elder   Join Date: May 25, 2004 Posts: 21,480 Religion: Catholic

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? Quote: Originally Posted by txstm So what happens to someone who dies thinking their (or their child's) babtism was valid? Are they damned through no fault of their own? We have no idea. We trust God, who is both just and merciful. Quote: Originally Posted by txstm Are they damned through no fault of their own? We would certainly hope not. Again, we must leave it to God because we have no way to know with certainty. __________________ Pax, ke ke's universal disclaimer: In my posts, when I post about marriage, canon law, or sacraments I am talking about Latin Rite only, not the Orthodox and Eastern Rites. These are exceptions that confuse the issue and I am not talking about those.

#11   Jul 11, '12, 10:07 am

dans0622 Regular Member   Join Date: November 11, 2008 Posts: 1,029 Religion: Catholic

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? Quote: Originally Posted by johnnykins I think the second scenario is probably valid as long as the person pouring says the formula of Baptism. If, however, the lay person pouring is not saying the words, then I would agree. In any event, this needs to go to the Bishop pronto.... Hello, Yes, you are correct. I did not read that closely enough. I also should point out that even if this and the last scenario result in valid baptisms, it's all illicit and should cease at once. Dan

#12   Jul 11, '12, 10:26 am

thewanderer Regular Member   Join Date: February 6, 2012 Posts: 3,650 Religion: Catholic

Re: Are these Baptisms valid?? Quote: Originally Posted by txstm So what happens to someone who dies thinking their (or their child's) babtism was valid? Are they damned through no fault of their own? It is quite possible that they would be a perfect candidate for baptism by desire.